ice cream, fences, and homoeroticism ([info]kindkit) wrote,
@ 2007-02-09 00:27:00
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Current music:Kristen Hersh, "Your Ghost"
Entry tags:meta, sexuality, writing

sex, history, and fanfic
A few days ago I was looking for discussions of recent Rome episodes, and I stumbled upon this post by [info]vaznetti. In the course of a general discussion about Roman culture's attitudes towards male/male sex, [info]vaznetti mentions that the Pullo/Vorenus pairing doesn't work for her because she sees it as contradicting Roman ideas about appropriate masculinity. In the comments, she observes that "if Vorenus made a sexual advance on Pullo, Pullo would have to kill him, and vice versa."

Before I begin, I'd better say that the purpose of my post isn't to diss [info]vaznetti, okay? Nor is it to question what she says about Roman sexual attitudes generally (though I do think it's noteworthy that, while both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony were widely known to have allowed men to fuck them, neither's social status or political power apparently suffered much).

What I do want to question is a chain of ideas that I've seen in a number of posts (not just [info]vaznetti's) about boyslash in a historical context. The logic goes like this: we know that culture A thought male/male sex (or certain kinds of it) was bad. Therefore, nobody in culture A ever indulged in these frowned-upon behaviors. And therefore, these characters could not possibly be doing it.

Now, I'm a firm believer in taking history in account, and not giving characters in a historical setting inappropriately modern ideas. When we write, it's important to know that Greek man/boy relationships were typically expected to end when the boy reached adulthood, and that the Romans considered being penetrated to be unmanly and degrading, and that a man in 1950s Britain could be sentenced to chemical castration for having consensual, private sex with another man. (*weeps for Alan Turing*)

But it's also important to remember that people defy their societies' sexual ideologies all the time. Just because a particular kind of sex is considered degrading/laughable/disgusting/sinful doesn't mean people don't do it anyway.

In my other life as an academic, I specialize in Renaissance England. Male/male sex was a hell of a lot more taboo there than in ancient Rome. Religion (both Catholic and Protestant) taught that sodomy was a terrible sin; legal discourse called it "a crime not to be named among Christians"; men convicted of sodomy were sentenced to death. And yet, men continued to have sex with other men.1 People also masturbated, had premarital and extramarital sex, had heterosexual sex of taboo types (e.g., oral sex) and in taboo positions (e.g., woman on top), used sex toys (there's a sixteenth-century English poem about dildos) and generally behaved like the randy creatures that human beings typically are. These behaviors weren't necessarily as common or as guilt-free as they often are for twenty-first century Westerners, nor did people think about sex and its meanings in the same ways we do now, but there's every evidence that a damn wide range of sexual practices existed. (Another bit of trivia--there are fourteenth-century London court records indicating the existence of crossdressed male prostitutes. There's very little new under the sun.)

For that matter, think of the ideas our own culture2 promulgates about sex. Romantic relationships should be monogamous.3 Kink is something only creepy, emotionally-disturbed people find appealing. Women are more interested in cuddling than in sex, and they never, ever enjoy porn.

(Have you stopped laughing yet at that last one?)

So I think it's ridiculous to say "these characters would never do that, because it was terribly, terribly forbidden." Why should we assume that our characters would follow every social dictate? Some characters probably would--Vorenus may be among them, although Pullo has quite a history of being able to convince him to forget about what respectable Roman men are supposed to do. Other characters might need convincing or have to take a long time thinking things through. Some might do taboo things and then feel wretchedly ashamed afterwards. Some might blithely do whatever the hell they feel like. The thing is, it all depends on the character.

When we're writing fic set in another time, or another culture, we should certainly think about differences of all kinds, and be aware of how our characters' attitudes and desires are shaped by their society. But we should also beware of a false universalizing tendency that turns cultural norms into straitjackets binding our characters. That's not history, that's stereotyping.

***

1Women undoubtedly had sex with other women, too. But for various reasons, it's less well documented.

2By which I mean contemporary America--I can't speak for the rest of the world, though I don't imagine things are that different in western Europe.

3Probably one of the most universally agreed-on sexual norms of our culture is that cheating (in a relationship that's officially monogamous) is wrong, is a truly reprehensible thing to do. And yet, many people--possibly most--cheat on a partner at some point.



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[info]halfnorn
2007-02-09 07:16 am UTC (link)
This reminds me of a discussion currently still raging on in Torchwood fandom: two male characters, one of which has travelled back in time, end up kissing on a dancefloor in the 1940s. The whole thing got a lot of flack, with many claiming that the character who stayed behind would have gotten lynched immediately afterwards.

Yet at the same time, several student of the actual time period this took place in noted that during a war like WW2, the soldiers would've just turned a blind eye to the behaviour of one of their officers. Situations would have been high-strung and 'strange' behaviour would've been tolerated. The whole thing would've just been shoved into the 'don't ask, don't tell' file.

I think we've got a lot of preconceived notions about time periods that we tend to view as absolutes. Realism tends to be a big thing amongst the older rungs of fandom, but often falls back on just such generalisations.

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[info]jadelennox
2007-02-09 02:55 pm UTC (link)
I can't understand people getting upset about that scene. Neither character was available after the next day, after the event in question, so there couldn't have been consequences to either of them historically. And the historical character was clearly in a state of depression and self-destructive to spare for a lot of the evening, so it's actually fairly logical to me that he would have made a socially suicidal move like public boy-kissing. And it's not like the crowd would have formed an instant lynch mob -- they were so shocked by what they saw, which was completely out of their understanding of something you see in public, but they reacted by pulling back and looking on, flabbergasted. It made perfect sense to me.

When you add to the fact that it made for some really beautiful and sad drama, I really never had a problem with it.

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[info]halfnorn
2007-02-09 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Honestly, the problem didn't even register with me until fandom began screaming bloody murder about it.

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[info]copracat
2007-02-11 08:35 am UTC (link)
And two men kissing on a 1940's dancefloor is a problem because Torchwood is such a model of realist drama? I should read more episode commentary because that's clearly where the fun is!

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[info]halfnorn
2007-02-11 08:46 am UTC (link)
Oh, the commentary can be hilarious. Bitching about historical inaccuracies in a programme that thinks 'continuity' is that icky green lump they found on their toilet seat this morning.

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[info]tiferet
2007-02-11 10:51 pm UTC (link)
As one of the people who bitched, I'd like to say that you can be a fan of something and wish it had continuity, and that that's not the only thing I've ever bitched about.

There were a lot of promises made for Torchwood and I feel it has mostly failed to deliver. Much of the gay sex has been the result of stress and/or mind-control, the structure and recruiting for Torchwood is wholly unrealistic (no effort whatsoever to ascertain psychological fitness for this kind of work, and damn but it shows), and one week someone's keeping a Cyberchick in the basement, the next they're a trusted teammate again. When I heard that it was going to be a more mature show than Who, I didn't think that just meant there was going to be more nudity and snogging, I also thought there'd be more plotting and intelligence in the writing.

I've done some 1942-era research--I run a game in that era--and while I'm not a professional I can see both sides of this argument. However, if the TW writerfolks wanted us to think that people would shake this off as easily as some of the historian-fangirls say, they shouldn't have had the very same two characters reacting as if they'd been badly burnt and were in danger of lynching when they were caught just whispering in a corner shortly before the kiss--the episode itself was inconsistent with respect to the message about how this was treated in period, and that's what I think caused a lot of the uproar.

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[info]becky_h
2007-02-12 01:40 am UTC (link)
, they shouldn't have had the very same two characters reacting as if they'd been badly burnt and were in danger of lynching when they were caught just whispering in a corner shortly before the kiss

That was the historical Jack's response, though. Torchwood Jack responded to it by moving away when his partner did. Then later, at the kiss, it was Historical Jack making the move to the dance floor and Torchwood Jack, again, following his lead.

The whole point, the whole lead up of the episode wasn't about the social norms of sexuality, it was about Captain Jack - the original - making a move and doing what he wanted tonight, living like it was his last night on earth - and what he wanted being Jack.

He danced around it most of the episode and finally did it.

So yes, clearly *he* had an issue with it, but that doesn't mean the issue he had was from fear of being KILLED.

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[info]halfnorn
2007-02-12 06:52 am UTC (link)
Well, mind, the continuity thing has always been my big gripe with Torchwood - I've written a few posts about it during the show - but a few episodes in I'd given up on the show making any kind of sense and decided just to enjoy whatever I could get out of it.

At the onset of the show, I'd hoped to see some kind of Whoniverse version of Ultraviolet, with its sheer intelligence and plotting. It turned out to be a different kind of show; I adjusted my expectations accordingly. That doesn't mean I'm not disappointed myself, or don't understand why a viewer would bitch... but it does make me cynical enough to laugh.

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[info]kindkit
2007-02-11 05:14 pm UTC (link)
a discussion currently still raging on in Torchwood fandom

After I posted this, I saw the Torchwood stuff and was intrigued to see the same debate happening in two different fandoms.

Years ago I read a book called Coming Out Under Fire, about gays and lesbians in WWII. It gave me the impression that during the war there was a lot of de facto tolerance (because there was such a need for soldiers).

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(Anonymous)
2007-02-09 10:24 am UTC (link)
The other thing we know is that if the literature of the time presents two pictures of how things were, then both were true. A lot of the more epigrammatic poems of Catullus take for granted that a lot of the young men - not boys, young men - in his circle are having it away with each other. He mocks them for it, and particularly mocks the ones who are getting fucked, but not in a 'you really deserve to die' sort of way, just in a 'I think this is quite funny' sort of way. Now, obviously his circle are posh young men rather than working class rankers, but that means that their behaviour is liable to have been more policed by those around them rather than less. They were expected to make good marriages and father children, which is far less the case with older, less respectable men.

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[info]rozk
2007-02-09 10:26 am UTC (link)
This was me, btw. Damn LJ and its loggings out.

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[info]kindkit
2007-02-11 05:19 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for adding more historical info to the discussion! I've read some bits and bobs of Catullus and Martial, but I don't know Roman history well enough to put those poems properly into context.

I get the sense that people often read Roman history/literature as though the sternest pronouncements of Cicero and other moralists are the "truth" of the culture. But as you say, a very different picture emerges if one takes other, less didactic (or political) writing into account.

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[info]penknife
2007-02-09 12:25 pm UTC (link)
Oh, well said. I think it's important to know the social context for the characters' actions, so that you can get a sense of how they'll think about what they're doing, but it's never been true in any society that everyone followed the rules.

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[info]executrix
2007-02-09 02:16 pm UTC (link)
As Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick says, there's the "unthinkable but quite often done anyway."

I've only seen a couple of episodes of Rome, but my impression was that Vorenus was--just about!--of a class to be able to demand sexual service from Pullo, whereas the other way around would be contrary to norms.

Although there were death penalty laws for sodomy on the books in the middle ages and early modern period, there were DAMN few executions, and most of them were for rape with aggravating circumstances. Furthermore, there was a long list of capital offenses, and church law was notably harsh on virtually every imaginable form of sexuality, including many expressions of consensual marital sex, so legal bans on sodomy don't tell us much about social attitudes, much less about practices.

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[info]kindkit
2007-02-11 05:27 pm UTC (link)
Although there were death penalty laws for sodomy on the books in the middle ages and early modern period, there were DAMN few executions, and most of them were for rape with aggravating circumstances.

*nods* There was also a good deal of overlap between sodomy charges and more political accusations, at least in early modern Britain. I do think there was a hardening of attitudes towards sodomy, starting in the later middle ages, and that it begins to be singled out as a particularly heinous sexual crime. But there's simultaneously a good deal of cultural ambiguity about what actually constitutes sodomy and what's just a normal (even laudable) expression of love between male friends. In a culture where male friends are supposed to share a bed (and where sleeping naked is the norm) . . . things could happen very, very easily.

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[info]executrix
2007-02-11 05:43 pm UTC (link)
replying to kindkit: although I don't think that the Elizabethan in the Street had an excessively positive view of sodomites, I also don't think it was an issue that was a major concern--he'd be far more likely to worry about being cuckolded or solicited by a recusant to engage in forbidden Communion practices.

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[info]jadelennox
2007-02-09 02:47 pm UTC (link)
I haven't seen any of Rome at all, but I'm really glad you made this post. People defy their culture's norms about sexuality (and any other form of behavior) all the time. If you want to be historically accurate, you can throw in stress, neuroses, or or any other consequences, as well as secrecy and general lack of overall approval.

(Now I shift to talking about gender, because it's what I know more about.)

There are also always publicly known in the knowledge exceptions to the rules. When people get cranky because they've read a story that takes place in medieval or Renaissance Europe in which a woman is smart, literate, and powerful, I always want to talk about Christine de Pizan. Any number of abbesses. Or hell, Margery Kemp, who may have been batshit insane, but who got away with it. Not to mention characters lower down in the social order; do you ever get the feeling that if Chaucer were writing today, he would get criticized because the Wife of Bath and the Prioress are historically unrealistic?

On top of that, the stories are written for contemporary readers. Carolyn Cushman occasionally gets criticized for her middle grade historical novels because all of her heroines are (not historically unbelievably, in my opinion) spunky and independent. But honestly, why would a contemporary 12-year-old girl want to read a story about a historical 12-year-old girl who gets married off to a 40-year-old man, is pregnant at 13, stays at home mending all day, and dies in childbirth 21? That's important history, but it's not a very pleasurable story, for the most part. It's appropriate for fiction, it leaves sometimes, to write about the exceptions to the rules.

Let's face it, most California teenagers don't fight demons or run amateur private eye businesses. Most hospitals would have fired Gregory House a very long time ago, or would have reprimanded Derek Shepherd for sleeping with an intern. As long as you do your basic research and don't strain the limits of believability too much, there's nothing wrong with writing about exceptions.

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[info]secondsilk
2007-02-10 01:54 pm UTC (link)
Word!

My first year Medieval History document analysis was from the time of Pope Gregory IV, I think. The document included a line about women who owned property. I took it is so obvious a proof of the rights of women that I didn't even mention it. But others said 'This is wrong, because women had no rights and couldn't own property.' The lecturer was, naturally, appalled.

Some of the medicine in House is down right bizarre (as is the military stuff in West Wing, I think). That is a more reasonable cause of complaint. But, the show is not a documentary, makes no claims about accuracy, is written for lay audiences, and works as drama. The most important thing is that it works as a story. In fanfic, too, that it works for those character.

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[info]tiferet
2007-02-11 10:58 pm UTC (link)
House breaks a lot of laws, but if he didn't do that, he might actually be able to find himself a place at a research/teaching facility if his research were brilliant enough. I work for a guy who is a lot like House. The show drives me nuts with the constant HIPAA violations et cetera, but the personality dynamics are surprisingly realistic, with the caveat that House's relationship with the ducklings is not like the relationship of department heads to one another (most department heads in a large research hospital have to use their assistants just to get each other on the phone) but rather like the relationship of a brilliant research-oriented doctor with his postdocs, fellows and residents.

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[info]glossing
2007-02-09 05:10 pm UTC (link)
I'm very glad you made this post; it's sensible to a fault.

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[info]rydra_wong
2007-02-09 06:06 pm UTC (link)
(Here via [info]penknife's rec, btw.)

Hrm. See, I want to agree with both you and [info]vaznetti here.

Yes, people regularly do contravene their society's ideologies about what's normal and what's permissible, but if you want to be realistic in how you depict that, you better be aware of how they're likely to conceptualize what they're doing in the first place.

I do think it's noteworthy that, while both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony were widely known to have allowed men to fuck them, neither's social status or political power apparently suffered much

On the other hand, AFAIK we know about it mainly because it was used as a political slur, and Rome made great play out of the Second Philippic, in which one of Cicero's chief claims is that Antony took it up the arse, and that's clearly intended to be damaging politically.

As I understand it, [info]vaznetti's certainly not saying that Romans never had male-male sex (which would be an idiotic claim for anyone who's glanced at Roman history, and especially in the context of a show in which they're regularly doing so onscreen).

But she is saying that writers need to know that for the Romans as a whole, getting fucked defined you as Less Than A Real Man.

And when you've got a character like Vorenus, who is deeply conventional in his beliefs about sexual propriety, that's a major, major barrier to him leaping merrily into a relationship involving anal intercourse - although, as [info]vaznetti says, mutual handjobs might be a different matter. And Pullo's possibly not Rome's biggest believer in social propriety, bless him ...

I'm all for people writing the exceptions and writing about how people got around or escaped from the social conventions of their time, but IMHO you better know what the social conventions are to begin with, at least if you want to be true to the way in which the show itself is depicting those conventions.

And it's got to be valid for someone to say, "No, I personally don't see Character X and Y being able to transgress those boundaries." Just as it's valid for someone else to say, "Personally, here's how I think X and Y ended up at it like rabbits."

(I admit it: both/and is my OTP *g*.)

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[info]sweetvalleyslut
2007-02-11 03:36 pm UTC (link)
I, too, liked both of these posts, but I agree with you about the comments made about Caesar and Antony. These rumors were started and propogated by people who wanted to make them look bad while they were living (like Cicero and his Philippics, which also include extensive, over-the-top descriptions of Antony's drunkenness and cowardice), or by historians who thought they were amusing. That's not to say that they necessarily weren't true, but claiming that a man was effeminate, or saying outright that he took it up the ass was just standard Roman politics. Sure, Cicero was possily more extreme than most, because he saw Antony as real threat to the Republic--he wanted to trash his reputation in any way that he could.

But that aside, I'm defintely one of those people who can easily see Pullo and Vorenus going there, if Pullo was convincing enough. :)

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[info]commodorified
2007-02-09 06:39 pm UTC (link)
Yes. Thank you. And extra points for the 14th C crossdressing rent-boy; I've got a copy of that somewhere... :)

When it comes to writing historical fiction, I tend to privilege what I read in biographies over what I read in social history. Social histories are great for telling you what the norm was; biographies are great for telling you what sorts of things people tried, paid for and got away with, and even sometimes how.

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[info]mofic
2007-02-09 07:20 pm UTC (link)
For all human activities, the written record is not the complete record of what people did. But so much more so for sex in many times and places! It's by its nature a private activity, and one that often does have strong cultural taboos associated with it. People likely did a whole lot of stuff they didn't talk about and certainly didn't write about.

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[info]vaznetti
2007-02-11 01:51 pm UTC (link)
Thanks for making the link back to my post.

I don't really have much to say about this; I don't disagree with anything you said, in particular (well, aside from the historical point about Caesar and Antony, which is more or less irrelevant to your argument). I still don't buy that either Pullo or Vorenus would break that social convention, but that's my reading of the characters.

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[info]tiferet
2007-02-11 11:02 pm UTC (link)
I think Vorenus is pretty demoralised right now. I don't think the Pullo or the Vorenus we saw in S1 could have done so (my MA is in medieval history, but I did a lot of classical reading) but I could be convinced that Vorenus could be got to let Pullo fuck him in the current state of affairs on S2. I don't think that it would be GOOD for Vorenus though; I think he'd disintegrate even more than he already has. Does that make sense?

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[info]moorspede
2007-02-13 11:39 pm UTC (link)
I loved your final paragraph. Could I add Man from Uncle dialogue which is not from the sixties, Professionals dialogue which does not come from England, and don't get me started on Supernatural.

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[info]ariadne83
2007-11-30 12:57 am UTC (link)
"But it's also important to remember that people defy their societies' sexual ideologies all the time. Just because a particular kind of sex is considered degrading/laughable/disgusting/sinful doesn't mean people don't do it anyway."

Exactly - in reference to your note about ancient Greece, I can think of an example from Plato's Symposium, which featured two adult males (Pausanias and Agathon?) in a relationship. Real, historical figures who defied expectation and weren't stoned in the streets for it

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