ice cream, fences, and homoeroticism ([info]kindkit) wrote,
@ 2008-06-26 13:11:00
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Entry tags:books

China Mieville on "anal-penetration panic"
Since there was some interest, I've transcribed the portion of China Mieville's recent interview in the March/April 2008 Weird Tales where he talks about phobic representations of anal sex in fiction. Spoilers for Dan Simmons's The Terror and Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow.

The sections in bold are the questions from interviewer Jeff VanderMeer.



I have a current theory that writers become so in love with their characters that they don't always recognize when they've written a sociopath, for example. And then their enthusiasm blinds readers who aren't careful and who go along for the ride, thinking, "Oh, this person is great."

Ah. It's an interesting question, and I've not thought of it in those terms. I've certainly been aware of the consideration of certain characters as admirable, or, in other ways, as despicable, when read from a different optic, they are not. I loathed Tess of the d'Urbervilles because I got the strong impression that Hardy and I disagreed about Tess. Similarly Simmons's The Terror, with several of his characters.

Did you like The Terror?

No. I kept wanting to find out what the giant polar bear was. When I discovered it was, indeed, a giant polar bear, I was deflated. I found it fairly page-turny, but I found it much too long, too bogged down with its historical research for its narrative, its disclosures and teratological money-shot too contingent to its narrative, and its embedded politics--particularly vis-a-vis homosexuality--offensive.

You don't believe these embedded politics were part of the historical research?

No, because I'm not talking about the politics of the characters, but about the politics of the text, as I read it.

At least he was honest. In that sense.

Specifically, the obsessive locus of the evil character's evil in the fact that he was an engager in anal sex. I know lots of people point to the fact that there's a "sympathetic" gay character too (who reads, incidentally, to me, very like someone invented because an editor said, "we really need a counterbalance to the evil gay") but that character is explicitly defined as a goody because he doesn't have sex on the ship. That's nothing to do with historical research or attitudes (and parenthetically, the idea that in a crew that size only two men would be fucking is ludicrous) but to do with the text's pathological Terror of anal penetration which is (spoiler!--hello The Sparrow) the usual way culture gets to have a deep-seated pathologising of gay sexuality alongide putatively liberal attitudes to desexualised gay men.

You've just ruined the innocence of perhaps 85 percent of Weird Tales readers.

Hurrah! My work here is done.

Please take a bow. I really liked the book, but I didn't catch the subtext you're talking about, in part, probably, because I was turning pages too quickly.

I'm very aware, by the way, that loads of readers of this may think I'm being a humourless or po-faced dick about it. This is how it reads to me, and I have a big problem with it. And I think arguments about "what the writer really means" or thinks are very point-missing, because this stuff isn't reducible to "intent."

True, but--and I'm not saying in this case--but in some cases, don't you have to be forgiving?

It depends of what. Give me an example?

For example, Philip K. Dick was a raging misogynist. But if you unravel the stuff about his work that is bad in that sense, you also unravel the good stuff. In a sense I'm playing devil's advocate because I do believe writers should think these things through, because it reflects on whether they've really created well-rounded characters as opposed to stereotypes.

This is not about pissing and moaning just because I disagree with the writer's politics--I love passionately Gene Wolfe's work, for example, far more than the writing of many people whose politics are more congenial to me. It's about saying that as a matter of reading, of literary response, when the politics or concerns or whatever of a paritcular text impinge on it in certain ways, make it pull in certain directions, interfere with other aspects of it, etc. etc., and in my opinion make it not just politically objectionable, but work less well as a text, then I feel perfectly free to criticise it on these (politico-literary) axes.

Sure--I mean, what you're saying about The Terror makes sense in that--does it make any difference whether the evil guy is gay or not? To the story? Not really. So then you have to ask yourself why it's there.

I don't think there's such a thing as "the story" disembarrassed of all the other stuff, basically. That's why I think about "texts" or works rather than the story, versus/and/or the writing, verus/and/or the characters, etc. In art these things are intertwined. Not reducible to each other, sure, but not little just-add-and-stir packets of sauce that you can choose one but not the other. Did I want to get to the end of The Terror and see the bear? Sure. Still, though. I stand by what I said, and I think there's no contradiction. I don't mind people disagreeing at all, of course, that's the point of debate. I do get frustrated when--and maybe it's my fault for not being clear--people take what I'm saying as "he doesn't like books by people he doesn't agree with." As the Lovecraft, Celine, Machen, Blackwood, Ewers, James, Cordwainer Smith, Blyton, et many al., on my shelves indicate, this isn't so. And it can operate the other way round too. For me, The Sparrow was a big thing there--that's obviously a book that intends to be very progressive about homosexuality, but in my opinion it, whatever Russell's beliefs and intents, is deep-structured by anal-penetration panic.

*****



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[info]lord_dingsi
2008-06-26 10:38 pm UTC (link)
And I think arguments about "what the writer really means" or thinks are very point-missing, because this stuff isn't reducible to "intent."

I love him for that statement. And then he goes on to say that it's "not about pissing and moaning just because [he disagrees] with the writer's politics". ♥ (He didn't even use "bitching". I am impressed.)

And from the way he describes The Terror, it's definitely another example of the "QaF bad, Will & Grace good" attitude towards homosexuality, that gays are only okay when they're sexless. :/

I need to read more Mieville.

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[info]47_trek_47
2008-06-27 01:09 am UTC (link)
He's totally your soulmate. I think you need to run away to England and marry him. *nods*

Also, analyses like these are exactly what are giving me fits about the potential unintentional subtext of my own story. *nibbles fingernails*

By the way, I am sending you an email (not about chatting), so check for it. :)

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[info]47_trek_47
2008-06-27 01:12 am UTC (link)
Also, as to the interview, it is kind of interesting how the interviewer Does Not Get It. Much like most people you try to explain that whole concept to.

*uses icon of favorite evil gay character*

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[info]zabieru
2008-06-27 04:36 am UTC (link)
My favorite part was the bit where Mieville's like "I loathed 'Tess of the d'Urbervilles'... Similarly 'The Terror.'" and then the interviewer's like "Did you like 'The Terror?'

Reading comprehension: Not just for standardized tests.

(The other Not Getting It bits were more serious, sure, but at the same time when you're dealing with a complex thesis that can be easily misconstrued, an interviewer who plays dumb or is just a touch dumb can be a big help in getting that across, so taking the text of the interview as a whole it's actually good that our fellow asked that "dumb" question that gave China the opportunity to clarify that he's not pissing and moaning.)

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[info]kindkit
2008-06-27 05:04 am UTC (link)
Yeah, I think VanderMeer was trying to draw Mieville out. He's no fool, at least judging by his novels and book reviews, so I'm pretty sure he understood the point and was just either playing devil's advocate or encouraging Mieville to explain more thoroughly.

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[info]slutbunwalla
2008-06-27 09:06 am UTC (link)
"I don't like bread"

"So, do you like... bread?"


;^P

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[info]the_christian
2008-06-27 01:10 am UTC (link)
Tremendous work Kindkit and thanks for it.

I'd disagree about the Sparrow, though. I think there's a scene that fully counters the whole 'getting buggered is a source for shame'.

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[info]kindkit
2008-06-27 04:02 pm UTC (link)
Which scene? I only remember heterosexual sex being positively portrayed in the novel.

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[info]the_christian
2008-06-28 12:41 pm UTC (link)
The very last scene, the head of the Order says explicitly, and I am reciting from memory, so please, be kind to me, 'Our order has been raped and murdered by many different cultures and races, it is not yours to be shamed. Your pain is not explicitly unique that it was at the hands of aliensand it all serves God.'

Which I have always seen as a way of the author saying that it is wrong for Emilio to locate any specific shame to his slavery, murder, -or- his rape.

So, linking 'anal penetration panic' to a sort of remarkable shame, is circumvented by the men around Emilio refusing to judge his sexual humilation except to say 'It has happened before.'

Which I have always seen as a very strong auctorial refuatation of any special stigma because of Emilio's explicit feminsation and sexual abuse.


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[info]mrmunkeepants
2008-06-27 06:31 am UTC (link)
huh. I will have to find a copy of this magazine - is it online, bookstores, specialty shops...?

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[info]kindkit
2008-06-27 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I found my copy at a good science fiction bookstore (Dreamhaven Books in Minneapolis). The magazine does have a website (http://www.weirdtalesmagazine.com) and while the interview isn't online, you might be able to order a copy of the actual issue.

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[info]thedilettante
2008-06-27 08:35 am UTC (link)
Brilliant, thanks!

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[info]kindkit
2008-06-27 04:03 pm UTC (link)
You're welcome!

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[info]slutbunwalla
2008-06-27 09:04 am UTC (link)
hunh, I'd love to read the rest of this.....
oh well.

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[info]kindkit
2008-06-27 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Well, the whole interview was longer than I cared to transcribe. Plus, I didn't feel quite right about doing so, since I'm sure Weird Tales needs as many people buying copies as possible.

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[info]trans_simian
2008-08-02 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Cool excerpt. I hope I can find that issue of weird tales somewhere...

Its too bad that Vandermeer didn't ask him to elaborate on The Sparrow. would love to know in more detail what China Mieville. thinks about it. I read that book about 10 years ago, and so my memories of it are foggy, but I do remember liking it. I remember especially liking its understanding of disability. Oh wait, yeah, the ending. Deep structured by anal penetration panic indeed.









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